Sunday, July 18, 2004

Is God Evil?

Evil.

The word itself has the power to bring certain images to your mind. It has many associations. What comes to mind when I say it? Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Mohammed Ata, Jeffery Dahmer, genocide, killing, torture, infanticide, destruction, abuse of the elderly, slavery, etc. etc. etc. But may I contend that you should add God to that list? Yes, when you think of evil, you should think God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

Let us first examine what the word “evil” really means. I take the following from the definition given by entering “evil” into the search at dictionary.com.

“evil
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est

-Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
-Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
-Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
-Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
-Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

n.

-The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
-That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
-An evil force, power, or personification.
-Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.”


So, evil is “Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction…” Something is evil if it is “Causing ruin, injury, or pain…” I contend that by definition, the God of the bible is evil. I will go about asserting this contention in the following article.

Can We be Moral Without God?

This is one argument I always seem to end up facing. Christians say we cannot be moral without god. This is ridiculous. Some of the most immoral people in history have been Christian. Sure, atheists such as Stalin have committed horrendous atrocities, but this just makes the argument moot. Both theists and atheists commit atrocities. Which man has more honor: The one who kills and blames God, or the one who kills and takes the blame himself?

A Christian friend of mine said that we are all immoral without God. He said you can see little children and see the inherent selfishness in them when they yell, “Mine” before snatching something from another child. This is ridiculous. The reason this happens is that children have a limited ability to reason and have no impulse control. It’s not because they don’t know about God yet. They don’t see consequences for actions yet, so taking something is the easiest way to get something. As we grow, we learn that this is not the best way if we are to live in a society of other people.

Also, what about the billions of people in the world who are not Christians? Do they not care for their children? Do they not oppose murder? Yes, they do. They are moral just as Christians are. They live as we all do, under the intrinsic moral principles of humanity. The bible has taught us nothing about morals that is not self-evident to any living human being. We all know killing, stealing, raping, injuring, etc. is wrong. It is only through beliefs in gods and philosophies that we are able to ignore these moralities.

That Which Causes Evil, is Evil

Per definition, something that causes evil has to be evil itself. No good, moral person would purposefully cause evil acts to be committed. The God of the bible causes so many evil atrocities it is amazing to me that anyone could worship him. The most blatant example of this is hell. I’m reminded of the analogy that goes as follows.

Imagine a father were to tell his son that by the time he is twelve, he must decide whether or not to love his dad. The father says the child is free to choose whatever he wants, but if he chooses to not love his father, then the father will put his son in the oven and cook him. What sort of freedom of choice is this? I don’t think it is any choice. Surely a man who did this would be considered one of the most insane, sick, twisted, and evil person you could meet. He would be thrown in prison for child abuse, neglect, and infanticide. Even the criminals in prison would look down on this child murderer, most likely taking out revenge in the child’s name. How ironic is it then that when God does this, we worship him, say “God is Love”, and build churches in his honor.

Yet this is the choice God gives us in the bible. Either love him, and choose him, or we will face the fires of hell. In fact, I think the God of the bible to be a much more sadistic, unjust, malevolent, and cruel than the man who puts his son in an oven. This is because the God of the bible punishes us eternally. The young boy will burn and die. Mankind will suffer the pains of hell for eternity. Some descriptions of how we can begin to fathom eternity are found around the web. Interestingly enough, when I typed “How long is eternity” into google.com, nine out of ten results were Christian sites warning about hell, such as this one. The quote at the end is especially poignant, “Let the sum total represent centuries and only then would eternity have begun. Only then would the sinner in hell have a small part of the suffering of that awful place.” This site states, “You’ll exist in a terrible place God calls hell, separated from him and all that is good.” Well isn’t that kind.

What is Evil? How Can a Man Judge God?

Exactly what is “good”? To examine this we must talk about what many Christians I have talked to say when I tell them I don’t think God is good. Many say that we cannot judge God. I beg to differ, and the bible, as usual, is what makes me have this different opinion from a Christian. Irony at it’s best. Let us examine the book of Genesis.

Genesis 3: 4-5
“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.”


The key words here are, “…knowing good and evil.” According to this, Satan says we will know what good is and know what evil is. So it stands to reason from this that we can judge right from wrong, and can know when God does something good or bad.
“But Satan is the prince of lies and evil”, I can hear you exclaiming.

Ahh…well then let us look at the following passage.

Genesis 3: 22
“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”


Well, well, well. It appears here that what the devil said was true. God himself says that mankind can now judge right and wrong, knowing good and evil. It seems to me here that Satan was just trying to wake us up from the ignorance God had us in. Which begs the question: Why does god now punish mankind for committing a sin when we don’t know what good or evil is? Sure, he may have told us not to eat the apple, but how could we have understood the implications of this action, since we had no notion of good or evil? If we don’t know how to be good, then we wouldn’t recognize something as evil. Again, evil is defined as something “that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction”. Well according to the punishment God deals out in the following passages as the result of tasting the apple, that taste could definitely be defined as evil. I’ve added emphasis in places.

Genesis 3: 16-19
“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;  Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”


Well that certainly sounds like suffering to me, and this is just the tip of the iceberg of God’s cruelty to those who sin against him. So because Eve and Adam ate the fruit of the tree, without knowing the difference between right (good) and wrong (evil), Eve’s sorrow will be greatly multiplied, and have sorrowful conception, and serve her husband, and Adam has all of the ground cursed and it will be hard labor for him to grow food.

So to return to our main point of whether or not we can judge God as good or evil, I think it is obvious that we can. All you have to do is read the scripture in which God himself says we know good and evil as he does, “…the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…” Genesis 3: 22. As a human who knows good and evil, I judge the biblical god to be evil by definition.

Well if God is evil, then what is Satan? Why did God cast Satan out, and what is his punishment? Satan was proud, and rose up against God (Isaiah 15: 13-14, Ezekiel 28: 14-19). Therefore, he is judged, bruised, chained in darkness, and sent to Hell (John 12: 31, John 16: 11, Romans 16:20, Jude 6, 2 Peter 2: 4, Matthew 25: 41). It’s interesting to note that Satan was an angel (Isaiah 14: 12) who was perfect (Ezekiel 29: 15) and beautiful (Ezekiel 28: 17). The angels had free will, as is indicated by the fact that Satan chose to go against God. If he had known the punishment, he would not have had true free will. However, it says nowhere that Satan knew he would be sent to hell for his actions. It is only after he rebels that he is punished. The angels were created before man, and as free moral agents, some revolted against God. Therefore, God made mankind, and made him ignorant of good and evil. We didn’t gain the ability to judge good or evil until after the fall, and then God punished us for doing what he knew we would do(he’s omniscient, remember?). It’s as if God knew that once we realized the difference between good and evil as the angel’s did, we would see him for what he truly is.

Satan led a rebellion against God in Heaven and was cast out for it. Well, since we’ve established that God is evil by definition, wouldn’t fighting against God be considered an act of goodness? As a human who knows good and evil, I judge Satan, who fought to overthrow the evil biblical god, to be good.

On something of a side-note, some have said to me, the human definition of good isn’t what good really is. They say that the definition of good is what God wills. This is absurd to the nth degree. If what God wills is defined as good, then to say, “God is good”, is to say, “What God wills what he wills.”

The Story of Job

Job is perhaps one of the best examples of the biblical god’s evil. Here, he has a faithful servant, who had not sinned, feared God (who wouldn’t?), and avoided evil. Job had a number of sons and daughters, thousands of sheep, camels, oxen, asses, and also had a large home. He even went so far as to offer sacrifices to God after feasts, just in case one of his sons had ever sinned (Job 1: 1-5). It seems unlikely to me that you would find a man in the Old Testament who loved God more than Job. So what was his reward? Did God multiply Job’s household and give him everything a man of great faith would require? Did God make his seed the rulers of great kingdoms? No. Quite the opposite, in fact.

There came a time when Satan and the “…sons of God…” came to before the Lord. God asks Satan where he has been (wait…isn’t God omniscient?), and Satan says he has been walking around the earth. God asks Satan if he has “…considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man…” Satan says that he has met Job, and that he only loves God because he has so many great things and has been blessed so much. The Devil tells God that if God were to “…put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath…” that Job would curse God to his face (wait again…I thought no man has seen God face to face? John 1: 18, Exodus 33: 10, 1 John 4: 12). Basically, if God messes with Job’s stuff, Satan says, Job would hate God. The Lord already knows the answer (remember that whole omniscience thing), but for some reason decides he needs to basically destroy Job’s life through suffering, pain, ruin, and destruction in order to show Satan he is wrong. This would be a good time to go back to the start of the article and re-read what the definition of evil is. God knows Job would repent and come back to God after cursing him, but it’s not enough to know this. Instead, he has to prove Satan wrong, no matter what the cost. Sounds like pride to me when you can’t just be satisfied knowing you’re wrong, but have to be able to say, “Told you so!” Wasn’t pride the reason Satan became a fallen angel and was cast into Hell?

Quick question here in case you have confusion as to who’s at fault here. Who’s responsible for a murder? A robot, or the scientist who created the robot and programmed it to kill? Remember, God made Satan and saw all the things he would do.

In the first chapter of Job, God lets Satan go and mess up Job’s life a little bit, with the stipulation that he does not harm Job physically. First, every one of Job’s servants that watch his oxen, save for one, is slain. Secondly, great fire burns up all his thousands of sheep and the servants that watch them as well, save one. Next, his camels and servants that watch the camels are all slain, save for one. Ouch. Oh wait, to top it off a building collapses, killing all of his sons. This all happens on the first day that Satan is messing with Job, per God’s orders, remember. What does Job do? He shaves his head, and falls down and praises the Lord. (Job 1: 14-22)

So the next time that Satan and the “…sons of God…” come to see the Lord, God again asks Satan where he has been (anyone else beginning to be confused about God’s omniscience?), and Satan says he has been traveling the world. God asks Satan about Job again, and Satan says (paraphrasing Job 2: 4-5), “Yeah, yeah. So you took what he had. A man will give everything he has for his life. If you torture him physically though, he’ll curse you.” God, again knowing what will happen, still tells Satan to go out and do what he will with Job, short of killing him. So Satan goes and infects Job with horrendous boils from the top of his head to the sole of his feet. At this point, even Job’s wife realizes how horrible God is being to Job, and says, “…curse God, and die.” (Job 2: 9). It’s understandable that she would be a little upset with Job, as his worship of this God has caused the death of her children.

Job suffers for a long time, and his friends come to his house and the rest of the story is about Job suffering, and debating with his friends about God and his purposes. In the end, Job never curses God, and God gives the things back to Job twofold.

So what is the moral of the story? That if you are faithful, God will double what you have. Oh, and if you’re faithful, God will destroy one of your homes, kill your children, kill your animals, kill your servants, and strike you with sores and boils from head to toe, so he can tell Satan, “Told you so!”

Why is There Evil in the World?

Further support for my argument that God is evil is found in the scripture. If evil is something that causes suffering, and something is described as being evil if said thing causes ruin, then it can be said that whatever is the source of evil (suffering, pain, etc.) is evil, as the source is the original cause. What does the bible have to say about evil? Where did it come from? Man? No. Satan? No. Angels? No. God? Yes.

Surprised? Yes, according to the bible, God is the source and creator of evil.

Isaiah 45: 7
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”


When looking through my bible, I laughed when I looked in the topical index, and found that under the word “Evil”, was the subject “Origins of…”, followed by references where it comes from Satan  (Isaiah 14: 12-14 which doesn’t even say the word “Evil”), and from Man (Matthew 15: 18-19). Both these passages state that bad things come from Satan and Man, but they don’t say that Satan and Man are the sources of evil, as Isaiah 45: 7 says about God.

So to answer our question, the reason there is evil in the world is because God created it. When he did this, being omniscient, he knew it would enter the world, and he is therefore responsible. Evil is causing suffering and pain, and all pain and suffering in the world is the result of God’s choices. Therefore, by definition, God is evil.

Why do We Suffer?


This one is simple. And it’s not because we sinned, which is the standard knee-jerk reaction you will get when you ask a Christian, “Why do we suffer?” While it’s nice for Christians to believe that we only suffer because of original sin, the truth goes back further than that. The real reason we suffer is so that God can be glorified. We were made to please and glorify God (Isaiah 43:7, Revelation 4: 11). All the suffering, pain, sorrow, and terror we experience in our lives is because of God, for he knew we would go through these things when he made us, as he is omniscient (1 John 3: 20). Seems a little selfish, doesn’t it? God created us, knowing we would suffer, but did it anyways just for his pleasure.

It seems simple to me that God is the cause of suffering. Isn’t that the definition of evil? Yes, it is. This would be another good time to go back to the start of the article and re-read what the definition of evil is. You may feel differently, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone can see the god of the bible as anything but evil.

Sources
dictionary.comfillthevoid.org
johnankerberg.org
A Study of Satan
losingmyreligion.com
bibletruths.com
Since You Asked
probe.org






56 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is rapidly becoming one of my essential reads. I look forward to the comments once the fundies discover this site, and have no doubt of your ability to hold your own.

Keep up the good work,

-- Flinky Wisty Pomm

2:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilt." Mark Twain

I know you'll probally dedicate a whole article to Twain's implication, but it certainly stregthens the arguement of an Evil God.

Kristof

11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilt." Mark Twain

I know you'll probally dedicate a whole article to Twain's implication, but it certainly stregthens the arguement of an Evil God.

Kristof

11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm christan, and i must say, that i'm disabbointed. You see, God of the Bible inded IS evil, and that's the reason why i love him!

I want to plunge this world into eternal darkness, despair and slaughter. I want to bring the Hell on this world. I want to flay the skin from the baby's bodies, an i want to laugh at the weeping people, when they die.

God of the Bible is evil, like me. I want to torture, kill and mutilate all humans.

4:05 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

I have no response but to laugh. Hah...

6:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That whole article was really cool,
I was getting more exited from evry paragraph I read, and I agree with you, God is EVIL!!!.

2:36 PM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Thank you very much.

2:40 PM  
Anonymous lucifer said...

How many children died at Sodom and Gommorrah? "Blessed is he who smashes the heads of thy babes against the rocks". And they say I was proud and evil?

5:56 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Excellent point. Thank you for reading.

6:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If Hell is real, there's only one person who truly belongs there: GOD!

6:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This was a very interesting read. I think the book 'the God Dillusion' covers similar topics, though I have not read it. I dont believe in God, But i have always had the same problem as you in seeing just what is so 'good' about God'
I have not read the bible, and i'm probably not going to.. But Didn't God Kill the whole population of the earth Apart from Noah, His Wife and a bunch of animals??
ha, I guess he had his reasons... But surely all of the 'evil' things that Satan is said to have done, are minute compared to that!?

5:55 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

...especially when you consider that God created Satan, knowing Satan would do all the things Satan does supposedly. God is at fault for making Satan in the first place! He's responsible for EVERYTHING!

10:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My name is Solomon (This is not concidence - the essence of my mind/personality parellels the original Solomon in many ways.)
There are 2 points that you all must understand to even begin to attempt to understand truth in the ultimate sense. Foremost, I am not like the typical religious person, and this is good. Also, much of what this article states is true, although many corrections need to be made (Such as Satan is good - Satan wants us to share his fate and Satan rose against God because God made man to be greater than Satan, or anything that is contrary to what God states). However, your point of view is valid, yet incomplete to the degree that will cause anyone who accepts it sickening consequences. You say Hell is evil. I say its worse. Hell is beyond infinite evil. God revealed to me the true definition of evil. The definition that you mentioned is actually very partial and represents less than a fraction of what evil is. The simplest concise definition of evil is - anything that is outside of God's Grace. Yes God IS the Ultimate Source of Evil! What you must understand is there is no remedy for evil. What you must understand is it could be worse! God's abilities are beyond infinite. This life is not the worst possible evil. If God were bent solely on a psychotic purpose - He could easily create something that is worse than Hell, beyond infinitely more twisted, and forse us to begin life from that type of existance. God is not limited by allowing us to experience good just to heighten evil. God is not human, he has no need to lie/deceive about anything, that would take away from him. You say God indirectly deceives - Absolutely, from the standpoint that reality is not as it seems. But God does not deceive on the ultimate level of truth, the deception I'm speaking of is your mind's ability to get to that ultimate truth. An encloypedia set can be written about that last sentence to give complete clarification. Anyway, here are the 2 points. One - Ultimately, God is not evil. God is not good. God does not exist. God does not not exist. Probably 99.99999% of people in all human existence have never even had a thought of exactly what I just said. God does not speak to humanity in this way, becuase it is over your heads. I'll make it simple! God is not creation! Any idea that anyone can conceive is an idea that is an idea of something that is creation. God is not creation! Evil is creation, Good, Righteousness, Life, Death, Existence, Nonexistence, Something, Nothing, ________, is creation! Once this is understood, before trying to talk about who God is on His level, then perhaps discussion that is not futile can ensue. Second, no one can change their destiny, except via God, but the destiny is still not changed from God's viewpoint! If you're destined to be in Hell, from God's viewpoint, you will be there, and you or no one else can stop it! If you're destined to be in Paradise, from God's viewpoint, you will be there, and you or no one else can stop it!
I am human and therefore went through a stage of trying to understand the reality of evil, and I have. Evil is as small as bumping your head as you get out of your car to being killed by a random murderer at the worst possible time. What you must understand is that nothing in life matters other than this - are you in alignment with God's grace or are you in alignment with God's evil! You need to go through extraordinary lengths to make this determination, if necessary, because it is consequental only to you. To despair of or neglect God's Grace, is of the worst possible sins and is similar to suicide. We need God, God does not need us. The only way that we can be in alignment with God's grace, is for us to do all that is intelligent to acknowledge God for who He is. There are many reasons why everything is exactly why they are - but that's another document! What you need to do is be no-nonsense about the truth in the way that you are, but realize that God's truth is greater (The specific facts that God states) and see how your understanding of the truth fits in, if it's indeed the truth, because truth is truth...

3:46 PM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

"What you must understand is there is no remedy for evil."


With this statement you have invalidated all you claim.

You have just stated what I try to tell people all the time; that is, that this biblical god is not omnipotent. If he is not all powerful, he cannot be god. If he were all powerful, he would eliminate evil. If he can't, then he is not all-powerful and therefore why must we call him god?

I've used this quote numerous times, but here it is again:

" Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?" ~ Erasmus

4:04 PM  
Blogger Marius said...

I do agree that god of the bible is evil. What i dont understand is why you say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit is evil. I have not read the bible, but from what i understand Jesus was a pretty nice guy. What do you base this statement that he is evil on?

1:22 PM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Jesus and the Holy Spirit ARE god, according to the bible.

4:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Both God AND Jesus are evil. Holy Spirit is propably evil too, because it's a part of God.

But God is many, many times more malevolent, wicked, sadistic, crueller, bloodthirsty and perverted than you can imagine. On the other hand, there's no good side in God; only pure, black evil.

I'm atheist, but i would rather go to Hell than worship that monster from the Bible.

6:06 PM  
Blogger Amarantos Everlasting said...

I wanted to ask you if it would be alright for me to copy this and post it on my blog...obviously stating your name or nickname as the writer.

Also, I agree with everything you said save for one thing...I don't believe Jesus was evil because I don't believe he was god...or the son of god, I believe his words were misinterpreted and he did believe in god (Probably) but was a good person. That's my view of him...since I am pretty sure he existed, he just wasn't god. The bible says he was but his words and claims could have been twisted and misinterpreted. Maybe he was evil too but aside from that time he denied a miracle to a woman who was not jewish (a gentile, I think) and told her, when she begged him to help her, that it was ilicit to give the bread of the sons of god to the dogs (beause his miracles were for the jewish only. God's people according to the bible) ...after which she responded that even the dogs sometimes eat the crumbs that fall off the table. He gave gave her the miracle because she "had faith".
I can obviously see that what he did was wrong but other than this he did not seem like an evil person and I can't find any other evil or wrong act by him.

11:14 PM  
Anonymous The Rebel said...

I read something that stated that Satan never retaliated against God and was sent to hell, but that Satan was a tool of God's will. That completely exposes God of puposely being evil. What a bastard!

Josh

P.S. Long live God (NOT!). Luckily, the guy doesn't exist.
YAY!!!

8:15 PM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Amarantos: If you believe that any single part of the Bible is not entirely inspired by God, but subject to Man's inconsistencies, then you admit that the entire book could be a a lie.

9:28 PM  
Blogger Avi den Kanashimi said...

Your argument on god being evil is a really good one, tough one to crack too... but just a question...

Why do you go through all the trouble to prove that the bible is nonsense and that god is evil and satan is good and such?

If your truely atheist, you wouldn't believe a word the bible says and you wouldn't go around saying god is evil. If you start saying God is evil, then people will start thinking you as satanist... which really isn't a good sterotype for you.

Believe me when I say, I be atheist, 100% atheist, and from me being atheist is what made me to click on your link on the google search.

In my comment here, I'm just giving a lil' advice (athough you may not need it) to watch what you say... you may be concidered a Satanist from supporting him so much instead of the intellegent atheist you are.

heh, to just think I found your blog by searching 'people who reaseach rabbits'... I still need to get that piece of information *slams head on desk*

Til next time :D

-Adk3n

12:38 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Thank you for the comment, Avi.

While I see what you mean, there are actually few people hated more than Atheists. I beleive that this is true compared even to Satanists. I've seen many people on television shows come out as "Satanists," and people just laugh at them. They are a joke. Atheists are hated. There is the difference. People are more afraid of a person that believes in nothing than they are of someone that believes in something, even when it is Satan.

I do not believe in any of this of course. The point of this site is to examine the Bible in order to educate people as to what I see is a more correct viewpoint. It is important in this day and age, as an atheist, to be educated in regards to religious matters. Religion is a stronger force in our world than it has been in some time unfortunately. Atheists must "know their enemy" in order to protect themselves and defuse any of the ridiculous arguments the believers try to throw at us.

One such argument is, "God is love and God is good." I don't believe that this is true at all, and that is the point of this article.

Again, thanks for the thought-provoking comment. :)

8:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While, I don't want to leave a long critique of what you've said, I do feel a rebuttal is needed. I am a Christian and I do enjoy debating these issues. I think you have been very precise in your arguements and have done well to use the Bible to try and prove what you believe.

My first critique is that you made a comment about a scientist "programming" a robot to kill would be guilty of murder, not the robot. God did not "program" us. The Bible is very clear that we have a freedom to choose. Foreknowledge does not imply that He made us do something. If I were to tell you that I was going to hit you, and then I did, was it your fault that I hit you? You knew about it.

Secondly:
" Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?" ~ Erasmus

With that quote there is an assumption that God is never going to get rid of evil. For God to rid the world of evil, He would have to rid us of evil thoughts as well. That means we do become robots. However if you look at man the way the Bible describes him, which is sinful (or broken) and in the end we can be perfected (if you choose to follow God). Revelation describes how God will judge the world. He will get rid of evil. When we are perfected, we will no longer have a sinful mind that desires to do evil things.

Some may say that destroying the world is evil. Is it evil for a judge to sentence a murderer to the death penalty? Whose falt is it that the murderer is getting the death penalty - the judges or the murderers? If the judge lets the person go, is he himself then not evil? In the same way God must judge evil. What you read in the Old Testatmen about God sending Israel to war with other nations was often times a judgment on that nation (i.e. Jericho, Assyria, etc). In the account of Soddom and Gommorah the men of the city wanted to rape the angels that came to warn Lot. They were beating on the door and trying to break in. The only thing that stopped them were the angels blinding them (Gen 19). God judged that city. Was he evil in inflicting "suffering"? I think not. I think He was acting as a just judge.

Those are my comments for now. I love discussing theology/philosophy and what not - but doing it this way gets difficult. I'm open to any serious discussion from anyone - please don't waste my time with "evil" words and obscenities.

4:42 PM  
Blogger Flying_NEB said...

(I was the "annonymous Christian" above. I just got my account set up - FYI)

4:46 PM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Your comments regarding the robot make up a straw man argument. Obviously, we are not robots, but what you point out misses the point of my (perhaps not the best) analogy.

As far as it goes with God destroying evil someday, that is all fine and well. However, the fact remains that evil DOES exist NOW and is experienced by many.

10:18 AM  
Blogger Flying_NEB said...

Another thought came to me regarding your Father/child/oven analogy. You left a couple things out of that. First of all, you're admitting that God has been very straight forward - you have two options and you DO have a choice. Secondly, God as a righteous judge is sending people "to the oven" because of what they have done. We have all broken his law thereby condemning ourselves. Just like if you were speeding and got caught, you have to pay the price. However, God is also the one who made a way out of the oven. He is the one who sacrificed His own son first, raised Him back to life conquering death so that we don't have to spend eternity in Hell. It would be like the cop who wrote you a ticket for speeding also chose to pay it for you. It's your choice, pay the ticket that you earned/deserve, or let him pay it. Your analogy shouldn't be that the choice is "love me or get in the oven"; the choice is "you've turned the oven on because you did wrong things and you've opened the door. the door can be closed but you have to accept the price that 'father' paid." Yes the choice of acceptance is choosing to love God, but I don't feel you adequately/correctly represented the situation.

11:50 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Flying Neb, you have missed the point of the father/son/oven analogy. The point is, that God could have created a way for us to NEVER suffer, and NEVER face consequences, but STILL have free will and STILL live in a great, loving environment. He is supposedly omnipotent, and therefore nothing is beyond him. However, he chose to create a system in which people suffer. God DECIDED to create a system where people can suffer, when he had the option no to, and is therefore a creator of evil.

11:54 AM  
Blogger guitarist.always said...

good stuff. check out my blog. i just posted a blog on the book of job. i compared God to a modern totalitarian.
guitaristalways.blogspot.com

8:56 PM  
Blogger Rafael said...

THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL: THE ATHEIST IGNORANCE
The source of all evil, the irrational atheist who blatantly impose on families a mechanism of unbelief that leads to murderous intolerance. Without rational force in their views because and atheist will never study seriously the subject of God. Atheists are teaching our children their ignorance which promote crime, lies, and have created today's system of immorality. Rafael The first subject we are confronted with is God.Let us read a few verses from the Bible. Psalm 14:1 of the Old Testament says, "The fool has said in his heart,/There is no God." This sentence may also be translated as "The fool does not want God in his heart." The result of saying this can be found in the second sentence of the same verse: "They are corrupt; they do abominable deeds."Let us also take a passage from the New Testament. Hebrews 11:6 says, "For he who comes forward to God must believe that He is."THREE KINDS OF PEOPLEWhether you claim to be a Christian, a non-believer, or a seeker after truth, we will start by examining the subject of God. In this respect the world is divided into three camps. The first is that of the atheists who do not believe in a God. The second consists of the agnostics. They have no sure knowledge about the deity. On the one hand, they dare not say there is no God, but on the other hand, they are not clear if God does exist. We belong to the third category of those who believe in God.PROSECUTIONIs there a God? I will not try to say yes or no to this question. Rather, I will make this place a law court. I will ask you to be the judge, and I will be the prosecutor. The work of a judge is to make decisions, to approve or disapprove the truth of statements; the work of a prosecutor is to present all the evidence and arguments that he can possibly gather.Before we proceed, we have to be clear about one fact: all prosecutors are not eyewitnesses of crimes. They are not policemen. A policeman may personally witness an event, whereas a prosecutor obtains his information only indirectly. He places all the charges, evidence, and arguments collected before the judge. In the same way, I shall present before you everything that I can possibly find. If you ask whether I have seen God or not, I would say "no." I am reading or demonstrating what I have gathered. My job is to search for facts and to call for witnesses. You are to arrive at a conclusion yourself.QUALIFICATIONSMany people assert that there is no God. As a prosecutor I ask you first to check the qualification of these people. Are they qualified to make such claims? Are those who assert that there is no God moral or immoral? Do not just listen to their arguments. Even robbers and swindlers have their arguments. Of course, the arguments support them as robbers and swindlers. The subject of their arguments may be very noble; they may talk about the state of the nations and the welfare of society, but their opinions cannot be seriously considered. They are not worthy of passing such judgments. If a man is upright in his conduct and moral judgment, we can give credibility to his words, but if not, his words lose their credibility. This is especially true when it relates to the question of deity. It is interesting to note that the moral standards of men are directly related to their concept about God. Those who admit their own ignorance have a passable standard, while insistent atheists invariably have a low level of moral responsibility. I do not claim to know all atheists, but of the several thousand that I know, none of them possess a notably commendable morality. You may tell me that there was once a moral atheist, but if there was one, he is dead. Or you may tell me that there will be a moral atheist, but whoever he may be, he is not here yet. At least we can say that for now, we do not know a moral atheist.NO ATHEIST IS MORALOnce at a gathering at the University of Nanking, I remarked that no atheist is moral. There were many students on the campus who did not believe in God. They were greatly offended by these words. The next day, while I was speaking, they came and shuffled their feet in an attempt to distract me and the audience. The next day when they came again, they made funny gestures and faces at me and carried on continuously throughout the speaking. On the fourth day the vice-president of the university, Dr. Williams, came and said to me, "We had better change the place of meeting. These students are infuriated by your assertion on the first day that atheists are not moral. Today they are not going to use their feet and lips only; they are going to use their fists. I heard that they will be waiting at the entrance of the hallway and will jump on you when you step in." I went along with the arrangement and conducted the meeting at another place. On the way to the meeting I walked alongside many students and listened to their conversations. Although many did not agree with me and felt uneasy about my preaching, they wanted to come back. One among them remarked, "Mr. Nee said that people who have no God have no sense of moral responsibility. This is perfectly right. How can anyone with moral decency shuffle his feet and jest while others are delivering a speech? Yesterday they caused such a disturbance in the meeting, and today they are going to come to fight. This is surely not what an honorable person would do. There is no doubt that those who do not believe in God do not have moral decency. Let us go to the meeting regardless of what they plan to do."Once a young man told a preacher, "When I was young, I seriously believed in God. But now that I am in college. I can no longer believe in Him." The fifty-year-old preacher patted the young man's shoulder and said, "My son, you do not believe in God anymore! Let me ask you a question: Since you have been converted to be an atheist, have you advanced morally? Has atheism helped you become better? Has it made your thoughts cleaner or your heart purer? Or did it make you just the opposite?" That young man felt ashamed. He admitted that he had gone downhill morally since his denial of God. The preacher pressed on: "I am afraid that you are not really saying that you believe there is no God, you are just hoping that there is no God."DO NOT JUDGE ACCORDING TO HOPEMany people are not really convinced that there is no God; they merely hope so. They would rather that there were no God in the universe. For them it would be much more convenient in respect to many things.I myself was one of those people. When I was a student I claimed that there was no God. Although I was extremely strong in my claim, something within me seemed to be protesting and saying, "There is a God." I knew deep in my heart that God exists. But my lips refused to admit this so that I could have an excuse for sinning. By declaring the nonexistence of God, going to sinful places was justifiable. If there were no God, I would become bold to sin. When you believe in God, you dare not do certain things. When you do away with God, you feel free to commit the worst sins without any fear whatsoever. If you sincerely hope to raise your moral standard by asserting the nonexistence of God, then your arguments are still plausible. However, the only reason men claim that there is no God is for an excuse for lawlessness, immorality, license, and indecency. For this reason, their whole argument is not worthy of consideration. The question is, "Are you qualified to claim that there is no God?" If your hope is merely for an escape from justice, you have lost your ground already.IS MAN THE GREATEST?One day a young man came to me and said, "I do not believe in a so-called God. Man is the greatest. He is the noblest among all creatures. There is no God in this universe; man is everything." We were sitting opposite each other. After hearing what he said, I stood up, went to one side of the room, stooped down, and gazed at him intently. I said, "You are really great!" Then I walked to the other side of the room and looked at him from another angle. "That is right," I said deliberately; "You are great! In Kiangsu province there are thirty million who are like you. There are at least four hundred million of your kind in China. The world contains only two billion who are the same as you are. Do you realize that during the last few days there has been a flood in the south? The dykes along the river are in jeopardy. The whole population in Hsing Hwa with more than two hundred thousand people have been recruited and rushed to the dykes in a panic. They are carrying earth with them to reinforce the banks. The repair work is still going on."Suppose that the world is recruited to hollow out the sun. A hole is drilled through the surface, and everyone has to remove a load from the inside. Assuming that no one will be burned to ashes, do you think that they can do the job? Even if all the people themselves were inside, they would not fill up the sun. That is not all. If you put several hundred planets the size of Earth inside and started shaking it, you would still find that the sun would be very empty inside. How many suns are there in the universe? Do you realize that the number of solar systems is in the hundreds of millions?"HOW VAST IS THE UNIVERSE?I then said to the young man, "And here you are! You have not even walked through the whole earth, and yet you consider yourself greater than the whole universe. Let me ask you, do you know how vast the universe is? Take light for example. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. Try to calculate how far light travels in one minute, or one hour, or a day, or a year. There are some stars whose light takes three thousand years to reach us. Go and work out how far they are from us! And you think you are so great! I would therefore advise all atheists and young men alike to admit the incompetency of man not only morally, but intellectually and academically as well."CAN MAN EXTEND BEYOND THE BOUNDSOF TIME AND SPACE?Another time when I was in Kaifeng, I met another one of those young, stout atheists. I walked up to him and patted him on the shoulder, saying, "I saw God today!" He stared at me in curiosity and demanded a further word. I replied, "You are God! If you know that there is no God, then you have to be God." He asked for an explanation. I said, "Since you are convinced that there is no God, you must have traveled over the whole earth. If God is not in Shanghai, He may still be in Nanking. You must have been to both places. That is not all. If God is not in Nanking, He may be in Tientsin. You must also have been to Tientsin. But you cannot draw this conclusion simply by being in China; God may be in another country. So you must have been to every country on this earth. If God is not in one place, He may be in another. Therefore, you must have traveled throughout the world. One never knows if God is hiding at the North Pole or the South Pole, or in the woods or wilderness somewhere. So you must have combed through all those regions as well. If God is not found on earth, He may be found on the moon. You therefore must have been to the moon. God may also be on other planets or in outer space. This means that you have traveled through space and all the other galaxies as well. If you can say that there is no God, it must mean that you have traveled throughout the whole universe. If this is the case, you must be God yourself."This is not all. Even though you know that God does not exist in Shanghai today, how about yesterday? Perhaps God will come tomorrow. You say that you know there is no God today, but what about last year? And how do you know that God will not come next year? You say that there is no God this year, but what about a thousand years ago? Very well, you must be an everlasting one who knows everything about the past and future. You have to be a being beyond time and space. You must be in Tientsin and in another country at the same time; you must be omnipresent from the east to the west, from the North Pole to the South Pole. Who else but you can be the very God? If you are not God, you can never be qualified to say that there is no God."THE EVIDENCESome will immediately step back and say, "I have never said that I know there is no God. One can never tell whether there is a God or not." Well, if you cannot give a conclusion, I will ask witnesses whom I consider trustworthy to present arguments to you and prove the existence of God. Again let me say this, you are the judge, and I am the prosecutor. I am presenting only the evidence before you. Decide for yourself if there is a God.THE UNIVERSEFirst, look at nature, the world that is before our eyes and every phenomenon in it. We all know that scientific knowledge is the rational explanation of natural phenomena. For example, there is an observed drop in the temperature of a patient. The drop in temperature is a phenomenon, and the explanation for it is scientific knowledge. When an apple falls from the tree, it is a phenomenon. Why does an apple not fly into the air? The explanation for this phenomenon constitutes knowledge. A man with knowledge is a man who has the proper explanations.ONLY TWO EXPLANATIONSThe universe displays countless phenomena of diverse forms, colors, shapes, and nature. We cannot fail to notice these phenomena before our eyes. The explanation for all these phenomena is known as knowledge. All thoughtful persons have only two explanations as far as the origin of the universe is concerned; there is no third explanation. You have to take one or the other of them.What are these two explanations? The first says that the universe came into being through natural evolution and self-interaction; the second attributes its origin to a personified Being with intellect and purpose. These are the only two explanations presented by all philosophers of the world. There is not a third one.Where did the universe come from? Did it come into existence by itself or through chance? Or was it designed by the One from whom we derive the concept of God? You have to think and then make a decision about it. Everything that is by chance has certain characteristics. I would suggest you list all of these in a detailed way, the more the better, and then compare all the phenomena of the universe with your list. Alongside of this make another list of the characteristics which, in your opinion, would be prominent if the universe were created by an intelligent Being. Now by a simple comparison of nature with your two lists, it will be easy to draw a reasonable conclusion.CHANCE EVENTSWhat are the characteristics of things that come about by chance? First, we know that they are unorganized. At the most they can be partially integrated. They can never be totally organized. One can achieve a specified goal by chance once, but he can never achieve a specified goal by chance all the time. Anything that comes together by chance can only be integrated partially, never totally. For example, if I throw this chair to the other side of the room, by chance it may come to rest at a perfect angle. If I do the same with a second chair, it may also lie neatly beside the first one. But this will not keep on happening with the third and the fourth and so on. Chance can only provide partial organization. It does not guarantee total integration. Furthermore, all random interactions are aimless, disorganized, and purposeless. They are without order and structure; they are loose, formless, disorderly, and not directed toward any meaningful purpose. Briefly, we can say that the characteristics of chance events are disharmony, irregularity, inconsistency, purposelessness, and insignificance. We will write down these four characteristics on our list.CONSISTENCY AND ORGANIZATIONNow let us compare the things in the universe with these characteristics. Take, for example, the human being. He is carried in his mother's womb for nine months and delivered; he grows up and eventually dies. This cycle is repeated for every single individual. Consistency can be observed. It is not a wild game of chance. Again, look at the sun above your head. It does not exist purposelessly. Rather, it has its purpose and significance. Look at the moon, the stars, and the myriads of galaxies through your telescope. Some stars have their own planets. They all follow definite tracks and patterns. They are all organized. Their manner of motion can be calculated and predicted. The calendar in your hand is derived from them. Even next year's calendar can be printed before this year is past. All these show that the universe is organized, consistent, and purposeful.MICROORGANISMSLet us turn to the micro-world. Take a thin slice of wood. Put it under a microscope and observe its grain and structure, all meticulously regular and rhythmic. Even a blade of grass and the petal of a flower are finely fashioned. Nothing is unorganized or confused. Everything is disciplined and functional. All these things witness one fact to you: the universe, with its macro and micro aspects, is purposeful and meaningful. Can you say that all these came into existence by chance? Surely you cannot.IS IT OCCUPIED?Once I was preaching the gospel with a co-worker of mine in a village. On the way back we were extremely thirsty. There was neither a teahouse nor stream for us to get water. In fact the whole area was uninhabited. After walking for a while we came across a thatched hut. We went to the door quickly and knocked. For a long time there was no answer. We thought that no one lived there. When we opened the door and went in, we found that the floor was swept clean. In one of the rooms was a bed with nicely folded sheets. There was a teapot on the table, and the tea in it was still warm. I said, "Surely someone must be living here. All the arrangements indicate beyond doubt that this place is occupied by someone. We should not drink this tea. We must get out quickly or else people will think we are thieves." We walked out and waited for the owner to return.By observing the arrangements of the house, we concluded that someone was living there, without having seen the occupant. In the same way, we know that God is there by the arrangement of everything in the universe, although we cannot see Him. Every single phenomenon of nature is so balanced, organized, meaningful, and functional. You may say that they come by chance, but it is impossible for me to believe that chance is its sole originator. The Bible says, "The fool has said in his heart,/There is no God." Only foolish people can say in their hearts that there is no God.CHANCE OR DESIGNThe universe has to be created by Someone with profound wisdom, vast knowledge, and intricate design. If you cannot accept the concept of random formation of the universe, you have to admit that it was created by such a God. There cannot be a third explanation. The choice is left to you. You have to decide if the universe came by chance or whether it was created by God.A DEMAND AND ITS OBJECTOne witness may not be enough. I will call in another. This time we will consider man's heart. Before doing so, we should also observe one fact: wherever there is a desire, there must first be an object for that desire. For example, an orphan who has never seen his father naturally has a desire for a kind of paternal love. I have asked many people who were orphans, and they all have felt this irrepressible yearning. By this we can see that every desire of the heart arises out of an object in the world.As human beings we have a need for social belonging. We need companionship and mutuality. If you put a boy on a deserted island and he grows up alone, he still has the yearning for companions, for beings like himself, even though he has never seen a human being. This yearning or desire is the very proof that somewhere in the world there is something known as "man." At a certain age, man begins to think about posterity; he starts desiring children and grandchildren. This is not a mere fantasy. This desire stems out of the existence and possibility of offspring. Hence, where there is desire, there is an object for that desire.THERE IS GOD IN THE HEARTDo we have any desires other than social identity and self-propagation? What other cravings do we have? Deep in everyone there is a craving for God. Whether they are highly civilized races, such as those among the Caucasians, or the ancient civilizations, such as the Chinese civilizations, or the African natives and uncultured aborigines, they all have a common craving --God. As long as they are men, they have a yearning for God, no matter what race or nationality. This is a fact. You cannot argue against it. Everyone is seeking after God. Everywhere man is craving for God. This is very clear.By applying the principle that we just mentioned, we can see that since our heart feels the need for a God, there must necessarily be a God in the universe. Since there is a need for God in the heart, there must be the existence of God in the universe. If no God exists, we would never have such a craving in our heart. We all have an appetite for food. In the same way, we all have an appetite for God. It would be impossible to live if there was only an appetite for food but no food. Likewise, it would be impossible to live if there was a capacity for God but no God.NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT GOD?Once an atheist rudely rebuked me in a loud voice: "You said that a man has the psychological need for a God. But there is no such thing, and I do not believe in it." I said, "Well, do you mean to say that you never think about God? In fact, even while you were talking, you were thinking about Him. This indicates that you do have a capacity for God. There is no one who has never thought about God. He may try not to think much about Him. Since this thought is in you, there must be such an object outside of you."THE WORDS AND THE HEARTA young man once came to me to argue about God. He was vehemently against the existence of God. He gave me one reason after another for saying that there is no God. As he was enumerating the various reasons why God should not exist, I listened to him quietly without saying a word. Then I said, "Although you insist that there is no God and support yourself with so many arguments, you have lost your case already." He said, "What do you mean?" I went on to explain: "Your mouth can say as much as you want about there not being a God, but your heart is on my side." He had to agree with me. Although one can give all sorts of reasons in the head, there is a belief in the heart that no argument can defeat. A stubborn person may give a thousand and one reasons, but you can have the boldness to tell him, "You know better in your heart that there is a God. Why bother to look for evidence outside?"Now what would you say? After looking at nature and the universe, after checking with your inner feeling, it is up to you to decide whether or not there is a God. But you should not be irresponsible; your attitude must be sober because everyone has to meet God soon. One day you will all stand before Him. Everything concerning yourself will be laid bare. On that day you will know God. But now is the time for you to be prepared. We should all be prepared to meet our God

8:26 PM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Paragraphs are your friend, Rafael.

I only read the last sentence of that eye-bleed-inducing chunk of text you produced. My comment is this: You be prepared to meet your god. I have no god(s). The only difference between you and I is that I believe in one less god than you do.

10:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ramatheson....have you nothing to say to the above very long letter? Can u refute any of his argument?

2:05 PM  
Anonymous nmitchell076 said...

here is a question, if God (if you believe in him) is purely good, he would have created a perfect world, but he didn't, he allows for suffering.

Therefore, since the world isn't perfectly good, he is not perfectly good. Next comes “if He’s not perfectly good, he’s evil” that’s paraphrasing and I realize this, but you basically call God evil.

Here’s my point, IF God is the ultimate evil, He would have created a world that is perfectly evil, but we know this to be untrue, there is good in the world, everyone can admit that. If God is evil as you describe, then as a good God wouldn’t allow evil, an evil God wouldn’t allow for good. Therefore, he must be more centrist, a passive God if you will.

8:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

IF there is a creator god (as in the Old Testament)then why is that god necessarily omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent?

I was created by my parents.Does that mean they have TOTAL control over my entire existence? Is Thomas Edison the god of lighbulbs?

Even if god set the universe in motion, that doesn't mean that god is still in control. Once you spin a top there is no telling where it will end up.

It seems to me that the Old Testament god is a bit of a tyrant. Demanding submission, craving praise and harshly punishing the disobedient. It is argued that god created us with free will, but the Old Testament god doesn't seem to want us to exercise it.

To me, the New Testament god SEEMS more benevolent. Are they the same god? Does that mean there might be more than one god? Wouldn't that mean that no god is really God?

Just a bunch of thoughts. Thanks for the discussion.

9:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Old Testament is riddled with instances of where God ordered the Hebrews to kill "evil" men women and children ( including "evil" infants ) as he did when he ordered them to kill about 30,000 Midianites, ( he even ordered them to kill the "evil" animals they owned ).

Thou Shalt not Kill? I guess it is OK if you are God. That is a God worth worshipping, ( cough cough -choke ).

Then this same God turns around and tell us we are supposed to be meek, mild, loving, forgiving and patient with people as he taught us through Jesus. This is the same God??? He obviously had a hard time making up his mind about how we should behave.

I agree with what someone posted earlier: I would rather rot and burn in hell than worship the monster God of the Bible.

I tried being a Christian for years and all it did was teach me hate and intolerance. All the world was evil and I found myself filled with anger and hate towards people which I did not experience before I became a Christian. It leads to utter frustration, self hatred and hatred of others because no one can live up to the standards of perfection that Jesus taught.

Anyone who takes the Bible literally and seriously will end up with a nearly ruined life and having severe emotional problems. I know from experience. Stay away from it !!!

~~~ CHS

12:02 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Thank you for the thoughtful comment.

You are correct, of course, in pointing out that one cannot follow the Bible to the letter and in a literal sense. To do so would be insane by today's societal norms. Ironically, the reason today's Xtians are so "tame" compared to xtians from centuries past is that the modern xtians have to follow the non-religious laws. Thank god (pun intended) that Xtians have been shamed into not practicing their religion to the letter. Xtians acting upon the bible word for word led us to things such as The Crusades, The Dark Ages, and The Salem Witch Trials, to name a few.

It's late and I am pretty sleep-deprived now so excuse me if I was rambling above.

12:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

listen, to me the sad thing is not the fact of satan (i get him), but what gets me is how god will do horrible things to his faithful, faithful that never questioned him once. or how about god letting satan do his work? i'm not an atheist, and i sympathize a whole lot with jesus, but i really find myself kicked in the face when i see the good in the world being killed off in painful ways like cancer. zoroastrianism explains this one by giving saying ahura mayngra is all the bad stuff and ahura mazda the good. but abrahamic religions? not so much.

5:04 PM  
OpenID ishtar-elosha said...

Here's some further arguments for your cause which I recently thought of on my livejournal and also posted on a philosophy forum. Atheism is new to me, and it has taken gradual steps for me to become this way, but I am glad that I made the choice. I still hold the POSSIBILITY in my mind that a divine thing may exist, but I don't really care until someone can show us some actual scientific data that that leaves no room for questioning its nature or whether it even exists... There's really more important things to be concerned about in the world than whether there is or isn't a God or what actions merit its favor or disfavor...

I think that if God exists that he is 100% diabolically evil, but I tend to keep this view to myself due to the fact that it is not a popular mindset among the religious who would whole-heartedly condemn my soul to Hell for even considering the prospect. Yes, I would agree with them that I am going to go to Hell, especially if God is really evil acting in the guise of benevolence and condemns those who seek the Truth (which is beyond God's power) with total sincerity and dedication, regardless of the consequences concerning whether you will receive rewards and know bliss forever or be punished and know torment forever.

For my first argument concerning the evil nature of God, I turn to Genesis concerning God's forbidding man to partake of the Knowledge of Good and Evil on pain of death. Now, if mankind were at one time subjected to a total ignorance of the ideals of good and evil, how would they be able to confirm whether the deity they were serving was good or evil? See, a benevolent God would have nothing to hide, and would therefore have no reason to forbid such knowledge from being openly perceived, as it would only confirm the goodness of his nature and strengthen their relationship. A malevolent God would have everything to gain by keeping this knowledge a total secret so no one could question his dominion over the universe. Yet, another interesting note of fact is in the events which followed Adam and Eve's consumption of the forbidden fruit and were exiled from the Garden of Eden. God hid the Tree of Life from them so they could not grow to become immortal and be fully gods themselves, thereby ensuring that no one would be able to rival his throne in the instance that he really was evil and not good. Again, a good God would have no reason to fear the idea of competition among the ranks of the gods in the case that knowledge of good and evil were easily and clearly perceived, but an evil God would.

Secondly, in my perception, God judges us more as a collective than he does as an individual because it is believed that since Adam and Eve sinned before God all mankind from their bloodline down are natural-born sinners and must therefore die even though children are born innocent and have committed no crime and should not be held accountable for the things their ancestors have done. The idea of the transmission of the original sin through the generations is like saying that a specific bloodline of living beings should be subjected to the highest capital punishment for an act that their ancestors committed. Is this justice or the vengeance of a carnal tyrant? Recently, a religious person emailed me concerning this and compared God's collective judgment as an artist despising a flawed mold of his creation. But if God is perfect, why is the mold flawed? And if God was an artist then why, unlike any artist I have known, would he continue to make more product from that flawed mold instead of destroying it immediately after he realized it was flawed, and/or began working on an improved model which was more desirable to the senses? Plus, this doesn't nullify the fact that judging any child according to the acts of their ancestors is wrong, or assuming that the child is natural-born killer because its father or mother were murderers and should be killed or punished for their actions.

Thirdly, in order for the perception of miracles and magic to exist, one needs to be placating an audience of people who are ignorant of the laws of the universe itself so they do not know the nature of how action A resulted in action B. Wonder over mystery (which is perceived due to confusion) and miracle (which is perceived due to ignorance) then leads to worship, especially if another uses his own heightened knowledge of the universe to incite terror among those who have no way to logically reason with the alleged powers they are witnessing and demands tribute in return for protection, assistance, and above all, absolute loyalty. This, then leads God to have a motive in making all men born innocent or ignorant -- without any predetermined knowledge of the universe so they are constantly confused by an unusual mental blindness and are unable to comprehend the level of the powers he wields, of which he is only capable of manifesting due to his personal intense knowledge of the nature of the universe in which he dominates.

Fourthly, in being all-powerful and all-seeing, God has no reason to "test" and "try" mortal men, for he would then therefore have it in his grasp to perceive whatever result his alleged "test" would have on the chosen subject well before he began. It is moreover that man should be testing God and not the other way around, due to the fact that we are ignorant and don't know jack about anything and he allegedly knows everything there is to know about the universe. In "testing" us the only point God has to make is to remind us of our own incompetence by rubbing our insecurities and weaknesses in our faces as a parent would degrade a child for naturally not knowing "better." Also, in being all-powerful, God has the ability to unblock the unconscious repression of our collective genetic memory so we could better learn from direct example of our history and ancestry, but he doesn't because he wants us to remain ignorant so that we will continue to worship him and not rely upon the nature of the universe itself which is actually beyond him. Not only that, but if we were not ignorant, we would not be likely to sin because of the innate knowledge of the repercussions every action we make has upon the universe. No sinning means no punishment. No punishment means no fear. No fear means no blind loyalty in hope of being saved from pain.

A quote from Thomas Moore comes to mind concerning the nature of this:

"If you suffer your people to be born into poverty and poor of education, and then punish them for the acts they make in which their first dispensation disposed of them, what more is to be said then that you first create your criminals and then punish them?"

And of course, in God's case this is undeniably true, as all men are indeed a species of innocent children who error out of blindness and ignorance, not out of a true nature of utter evil, as the religious believe. In this, they are forgivable in my eyes. We are all blind and lost here. I weep for this fact.

Concerning the nature of humanity being collectively judged, there are instances that one may confirm this logic even by observing the reactions of other species and even ourselves toward each other. In the case of animals, every animal which has suffered from abuse at the hands of an individual exhibits very similar attributes:

1) A shy or timid behavior toward every human encountered.
2) A defensive or aggressive behavior toward every human encountered.

In the case of humans judging humans we have a tendency to actually group people together based on their opinions, race, gender, and beliefs, regardless to the fact that we ourselves grow angry or impatient when others do this to us and state repeatedly that we are all different and should be judged individually and not collectively. This observation is simply made due to the fact that I theorize that humanity will either be damned or saved by collective means, whether you perceive this as judgment from God or the workings of our own hands.

When looking over the world, it is amazing to see how it has been arranged as if to spread chaos, confusion, and suffering wherever one may go. This is based on the observation that life itself seems to have been designed with the parameters that in order for one to survive, one must be forced to kill and devour a fellow living creature -- the forms of our many brothers and sisters who share this world with us in many various forms. In this, the need for daily survival comes at the cost of personal integrity, causing the value of life itself to continually decline until it eventually self-destructs. And yet, that need for survival, which is written into every creature's base instinctual code, is all a pathetic waste due to the fact that all life is doomed to continual decay anyway until one's own body fails and breaks down, despite the drastic measures we all take to keep living. So we must kill to survive, but the killing done in the desperation for survival amounts to nothing in the end because you will not survive. In fact, the only reason you seem to be here is to pass on your genetic code and then perish and all living in between seems like a massive gladiator ring made to amuse and impress something with a sick craving for violent entertainment.

In the case for Christianity most specifically, most religious people claim adamantly that religion is one way to rise above mankind's innate carnal nature, but how can it be when its main central core revolves around the theme that since humanity is an evil organism due to its original sin against God and continual sins it commits in its ignorance of the real Truth of the universe, that the logical solution was to find an absolutely pure, perfect, and sinless man, butcher him like an animal and ritualistically devour his flesh and drink his blood which is reenacted on a weekly basis at church mass? I apologize but, to me, that is incredibly hypocritical.

In looking over this information, I don't find it strange at all that the thought that God may exist is far too depressing for me, not for the possibility that he will condemn me for thinking this up or not having unyielding faith in him, or that I am a sinner and deserve eternal torment, but for the fact that if he does, he is most likely evil, not only by reviewing information in the Bible but by sheer observation in the nature of the world I live. In light of this, evolution is therefore a much more positive and healthy mindset, as it preaches the idea that one can overcome all adversity via the interactions they have with their universe and eventually grow to a higher state of being.

I could go on and on really about this because I have thought about it quite extensively in my pursuit of understanding God, which I undertook back in my spiritual/religious days. And believe me when I say that according to the things I have "seen" in my pursuits I have been literally damned and cursed because I said I would look and not withhold any secrets whether they are said to be sacred or not from my fellow people who have a right to know the Truth concerning the nature of the universe. In my explorations, it is they who seek the Truth who are damned and we therefore are the soul-less ones because in loving the universe so greatly we have poured ourselves into it entirely, until nothing at all remains...

Are you going to take the Red Pill or the Blue one?
Free your mind.

3:04 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Thank you for posting.
"I think that if God exists that he is 100% diabolically evil, but I tend to keep this view to myself due to the fact that it is not a popular mindset among the religious who would whole-heartedly condemn my soul to Hell for even considering the prospect."

Why are you concerned about Hell? There is no such thing. The religious always condemn people, it's the only way most of them know how to deal with arguments against their faith. Most of their faith is so weak that they cannot address arguments and have a debate, so they simply badmouth the person that disagrees with them. That's how it's been for thousands of years, and it's not going to change soon.

Don't worry about it; their threats are the definition of "empty."

6:42 AM  
Blogger Jeremy said...

To Quote Albert Einstein
""Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

Just thought his was an interesting view on Evil. I am a Christian, I thought your insight was very well constructed. Without these types of questions and debates I believe neither side would grow in their belief...or disbelief. If that makes sense.

10:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting thoughts. Forgot what I was seaching for after reading all of the above. lol

Allow me to add tbits worth of expereince and opinion to the pot.

I do not either "believe or believe in" the God of the "religions" Most teachings of the world that teach peace dont Worship a "god". High repsect for teachers, but dont worship.

And yes, what freedom of choice if you dont bow down to me or I am going to kill you. Any "being" that demands or "needs" any one to worship is not "god" "or what ever you would like to call it". They are just a big ego needing stroking. And people cant see that??

If GOD is everywhere and knows everything and is Truely omni-everthing. Then it would HAVE to Mean you and I and ths laptop are god. If we are all in gods dream, makes sense. Remember your dream it looks real..but what really is it made of?? Thats for anouther article. Dont want to make your eyes bleed like the bible thumper. Maybe this is hell because we all refuse to bow to a tyrant?? Who knows.

I can say two expereinces that changed me, cause no one in a church, religion, etc could answer at the time. I have had OBE's and seen future events happen (no lottery number lol). But I know we exist after we are OUT, but I seriously doubt it is going to be what most think. No diferent than here.

And all these "chanelling spirits", dont people know that they are no different than people here? Just as nutty? But if they show them some "magic" "vodoo" then OH MY they must be a messenger! I can hear the ghosts laughing....

nice site...thanks. I love it when people start actually thinking for themselves for a change instead of mass hypnosis. As far as the Bible (collection of books" like everything else written by MAN is faulible. ANd remember, who ever is in charge...gets to write the history books.

enough said...just remembered what I was looking for. :)
...be back

4:55 PM  
Anonymous Roemele said...

this is crazy because i got into an argument with my mom today about how god is evil
and she said since i say god is evil shes gonna kick me out the house
and i said you sound just like your god punish me because i made my decision
and also
the other crazy thing
is your theory of the devil being good
my thoughts were
satan saw that god was evil and tried to rise up against him and god tried to make it seem like satan was the evil one when really satan is tring to get us away from this evil biblical god
my email adress is duke_gotgame@yahoo.com
my myspace is
myspace.com/roemelespro
i really wanna speak with you about god being evil
i mean
its like my thoughts on god and satan were expressed when i read that

6:16 PM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

I'm glad this article was able to help you in some way, at least in some form. You can contact me with the "Drop Me An Email" link on the right-hand-side, near the top of the main page.

8:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Buddhism is the ebst

2:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I used to be a passionate christian. My question involves this so called free will. Did Judas have free will or was he destined to betray Jesus? He was in Gods will was he not? Love and obey god or burn forever? thats not free will. Who in their right mind would choose to burn? who would worship a god who makes you choose. I believe in god. I also believe that everything is one big game. God desires a close and personal relationship with us so the bible says. So why wont he communicate with us. Instead the only interaction we get from him is a book very few read and even less understand. Good or evil, I hate him for making us play his sick game. I dont want to be rewarded or punished. this life is fun except for the fact that you cant escape sin. So I hate the creator for even making us.

1:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

try to understand the bible 1st before you comment on this wicked website. a non sense website along with a bunch of comments by the demons. try to read the bible without anger in your heart then maybe you will understand everything. not on your own wisdom but by the wisdom of God. such a fool person who create this website and all those who post comments of evil. analyze yourself. shame on you guys.

9:37 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Thank you for the post, Anonymous. I have read the Bible, as you would have known had you read this site in any capacity.

You argument is fallacious, and vacous. It holds no water, because you do not adress a single thing I said. You simply posted a standard ad hominem argument.

10:59 AM  
Anonymous Daniel said...

First I just want to say that if you would meet me and talk to me you would say that I am a Christian but I dont want to be a Christian because their is so many people that have abused the name of God. Many and many people have killed in the name of God and I dont understand that at all because It clearly says in the 10 Commandments "You shall not kill" and thats why Im really confused about the Old Testament when God kills many people and... well if you read it I think you will think is pretty weird and so I agree with anonymous post nr 33 I think:S well you could almost think that there is two diffrent Gods in the two Testaments and if there is just one God what was he thinking in the old testament.... I think I will never know until I die huh? well anyway I call myself a follower of Jesus because I think Jesus was a pretty nice dude and I think that everything he said was good and I agree with him... But now to answer you question "Is God Evil?" well I hope not, to be honest no one knows... we can talk all we want about this and we wont come to a conclusion... But if God is evil then we are all screwed and it sucks pretty bad because no matter what we do we will get hell in the end. But I agree with you there is no "good" God in the concept of humans because then God must be perfect and many in God thoughts God is perfect but in human thoughts God is not perfect because he have killed and stuff and we dont think those things are okey. For me it doesnt really matter if God is perfect or not. The only thing that matters to me is if he loves me... because if he does then he will try everything he can to help us. And now we could depate "WHAT IS EVERYTHING?" is it this or that or this?? WELL WE DONT KNOW! if we knew we would be on Gods level but we aint so why try?? Why try to think like God when you cant? And if you could you would be God and then whats the point of this discussion?? I would like to believe that there is a loving God because if Jesus, God , the Holy Spirit/Ghost is indeed good then maybe all that is said in the bible is true and after death we will live happily ever after... but if God is evil then it wont matter because he wont do any good to us no matter what we do... if we do good things we will go to hell if we do bad thing we will go to hell and if we dont to anything we will go to hell and so on... But I think the best option is to believe in Jesus and God and all that because if you think logical you will see that you will benefit more to do so.. Because if God is "good" and everything in the bible is true then you will go to heaven and to believe is not to be perfect its not to pray everyday or do alot of good deeds... Jesus said those who believe in me will go to heaven THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN ME! what does he mean?? I think he means those who believe in what I have said will go to heaven. Then he means that those who believe that he is God, that all of men have equal worth, that its wrong to kill, that its good to be nice to people will go to heaven. He doesnt say those who is the elite of this word who does the best things of live up to my expectations will go to heaven. You just need to believe in his words and you will go to heaven... how hard is that?? So if you belive in God and he is good and true then you will go to heaven but if we now say that he is Evil lets think what can happened... if he is pure evil nothing good will ever come out of believing in him but neither will it from not believing in him. You will get hell either way right?? And if you stop existing after dead whats the point of anything?? you wont remember anything you wont be happy you wont be sad you wont be disappointed you wont be anything... So to sum it up the are 5 diffrent things that can happened after dead and in all of the 4 things you have 2 options

First God exist and is totaly good
Believers go to heaven
nonbelievers goes to heaven

Second God exist but people that doesnt belive in him goes to hell
Believers go to heaven
nonbelievers goes to hell

Third God exists but is evil
Believers go to hell
nonbelievers goes to hell

Forth God doesnt exist, nothing exists after dead
Believers goes to nonexistence
nonbelievers goes to nonexistence

Fifth God doesnt exist and we all end up in some unknown place
Believers goes to unknown place
nonbelievers goes to unknown place

So if you believe in God that there might be a slight chance that you will go to heaven I think that is a pretty nice deal to give 1-100 years of this life to God and might hit the jackpot that not believe in anything and might lose big time.. I think its better to believe in God then not to believe in him then if you decide to believe in God, Jesus and the Holy/Spirit or something esle is not my concern.

To end my post I will say this I dont care what happens to you I really dont I dont care if you go to heaven or not...because I dont know you... then you might wonder why do I try to convince you that God is good and exists ... its because God told me to do so because he cares what happens to you whether you like it or not or if you choose to believe it or not....
Just a few more things before I finish my post Dont ever blame God because of deeds of men... Sure God created man but we got a free will and God can not be hold responsible for what you have done you have your own free will and its your own responsibility to act in the right way not God... So dont blame God because the world is fucked up because WE the mankind fucked it up and its we who will have to take responsibility for it.. And dont try to say " if a scientist creates a robot that kills who is to blame the robot or the scientist" the scientist off course but we are not robots we are human so stop blaming God for this fucked up world....

My last words:
Evil is the absence of love.

Sry for my grammar and spelling I know Im not perfect in english but I hope its readable /Bye

6:08 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

That was a long, unorganized post. Just to touch on the Pasal's Wager part (believe in god is better, according to the odds), it is really quite silly. What if one of the other thousands of gods throughout history is real? I'm sure Zeus would be much angrier with you if you worshiped another god, rather than none at all.

8:52 AM  
Blogger TomJohnson said...

Though you go to great pains to prove how evil God must be, it's hard to argue with the fact that though God has pronounced judgment (the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23), he himself has paid the penalty (God shows us his love in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us! - Romans 5:8). Jesus is not only the son of God, he is also "God the son."
Because of God's love, HE has paid the price - HE is offering you eternal life." I will always love Jesus and thank him forever for his wonderful gift.

9:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OKAY, if anyone hates God and thinks he is evil, its me! I am 18 years old, and my life has been nothing but a pile of steaming shit since 2004. back when I was young and didn't know any better, I was once "Christian" myself, but that has changed, much changed. at 12, I started to come to the reality that God isn't even a logicall idea, but once 2004 came, that changed as well. And believe me, reading that blog discribing that God is actually evil brought a smile to my face to know that I'm not the only one who believes this to be so. In 2004, I was forced to move in with my father, who I'd never been to close with, and his girlfriend who is just a flat out bitch. not long after living with them, I realized that she hated me and would fight tooth and nail to try and make it so I had to move my ass outa that place. and that only sparked it. I could just be innocently sitting fown and drawing, and my pencil would randomly break! No no, not like break from pressing to hard,the thing would break too far down for that! I mean, wierd little things like that would, and still do, happen all the time. then in 2006, my step mom "forgot to take her birth control for 2 weeks", and I had the most annoying child ever to be spawned to this earth running around my house, and I hate babies as it is! I started to realize God is very real, and he is no "Savior" like those christian fanatics want to believe. No, we are only here for his amusement, and he is only trying to see how far he can go with us before we either end up killing ourselves or dieing from stress or depression. This leads us to the subject that made my hatred for God increase. just this last November, 2 days after the election, my father died of, whadya know, a massive heart attack due to depression and stress, party because my step mother brought her bastard meth addicted brother to live with us, because he blew all of his money on drugs and energy drinks and couldn't afford a house. Oh, and he claim he wasn't doing anything anymore. So anyway, not only did I lose my dad, I lost my great uncle, my uncle who is my mom's brother is basically on his deathbed, my cousin isn't doing well, and everything is just oing to shit. Who is to blame? Who is making all of this hit me below the belt at once faster than bullets from an assult rifle? None other than the holy "God" himself! Oh, and not to mention I have like mental problem that doesn't affect me physically known to man. ADHD, OCD, A disorder I don't know the name of that causes me to inflict pain on myself that I've had since I can remember (I'm not emo, I do'nt cut myself), and who the fuck knows what else. Yes, GGod is evil, and I am living proof. sometines I wonder if I am thre anti-christ. Well it was good to get that off my chest... thanks for listening

7:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm going to make a religion that worships the demon god Asmodeus >;)

9:16 PM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

Thom Johnson: It is easy to argue that. There are many ways to do so, but here are two quick ones:

1 - It never happened, as the Bible is (largely) a work of fiction.

2 - Jesus' death just adds to the evidence that god is evil. Creating a system where everyone would be punished, and where the only 'cure' for this is for me to torture and murder my own son, is practically the definition of evil.

To anonymous: Paragraphs are your friend. No offense, but I can't read that without my eyes bleeding.

9:17 PM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

This was sent to me by a gentleman named Nathaniel, regarding this article. He wasn't signed up and therefore could not post a comment. Here is his comment, entirely as-is, with no editing, from the email he sent me (directly copy/pasted minus the introductory paragraph.) Thank you Nathaniel!

"It seems you've extracted some verses to suit your proposition that 'God is evil' and made what appears to be a convincing argument. Except it is disabled at a foundational level. It's an argument which by nature is paradoxical given it's an argument founded in scripture with the hypothetical allowance of the scripture being true. If the bible is true than you have already shot yourself with your own gun by denying the fall of Adam and the curse as being the reason for suffering in the world—freewill is the real conundrum. True freewill is the freedom to commit evil—therein lies the mystery. If you deny the bible is true than what nonsense are you talking about? You cannot make a hybrid theory of half truths. It's either one or the other. Now if you are to take the bible as true, I would accept all of the verses you have given and add more—like the 31,103 verses (give or take) in the rest of the bible to start with. From there I would formulate a picture based on correlating scripture...a fuller, more realized understanding of the role of suffering in the world—from the perspective of the bible that is.

Isiah 35:7
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create 'calamity' (another interpretation), I am the Lord, who does all these things.

(To argue that God creates all evil based on this verse alone is very weak. The overwhelming message in the bible is that God is love, loves us and allows bad things to happen however will always be the righteous judge in the end. Again, the curse is a mystery and God does allow these terrible things, but does it end there? What else has the bible got t say on the subject?)

Romans 5:3-5
More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
(continued...)

9:43 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...


1 Peter 5.10
And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

Isiah 25:8
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Mark 13:7-9
And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. These are but the beginning of the birth pains. “But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them.

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Corinthians 13

"If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast,* but do not have love, I gain nothing. (continued...)

9:43 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...

4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. 9For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror, dimly,* but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.



Some verses about sin and the devil:



1 Peter 5:8

Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
James 1:13-15

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

John 8:44

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Ephesians 6:8-10

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5

For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, (continued...)

9:44 AM  
Blogger ramatheson said...


Revelations 12:7-9

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

So it's mysterious God allows such pain...but is there something greater going on here...like Salomon said an Evil God would know no bounds. Why the message? Why the underlying, deeper commitment to love and salvation? Why faith, hope and love? Why would he encourage us to love one another as he has loved us? Makes no sense. I mean, a human mind can can conjure up some evil scenarios, how about the mind of God. If this is the worst and Evil God can do than I'm baffled to say the least—and let's not forget the good for within life there are still glimpses of Gods glory. There is beauty in world, even amidst the horror why? There is there compassion in people? Why the artistic beauty of a sunset, or the serenity of the stars at night? Why any goodness at all?

Furthermore if you are truly a student of the 'problem of pain' than I recommend the life changing books—'In Gods Underground' and 'Tortured for Christ' by Richard Wrumbrand 14 years imprisoned in jail for his unwavering beliefs in Christ — I had no idea what suffering was until I read these books.
“I tremble because of the sufferings of those persecuted in different lands. I tremble thinking about the eternal destiny of their torturers. I tremble for Western Christians who don't help their persecuted brethren. In the depth of my heart, I would like to keep the beauty of my own vineyard and not be involved in such a huge fight. I would like so much to be somewhere in quietness and rest. But it is not possible... The quietness and rest for which I long would be an escape from reality and dangerous for my soul... The West sleeps and must be awakened to see the plight of the captive nations.” — Richard Wrumbrand "

Thanks again, Nathaniel.

9:44 AM  

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